Starmer withdrew from that event in 2021. He would not have withdrawn today.
Lord Hermer has put out a disgusting tweet about this. They are now trying to to claim that 3,000 men praying on carpets en masse is no different from a single Jewish man praying in public. https://x.com/christopherhope/status/2034910566368563605
You can see which game they are trying to play here.
Nick Timothy and indeed all the Conservative leadership appear to be wise to it.
Being proven correct after Covid in ever so many ways, kinda sucks to be honest. I mean if it caused folks to get smarter and pay more attention and question more and make sure that such future events were not handled so suckily, that would be fantastic. Unfortunately tho all you have to do is look at the forces trying to crush RFK's attempts to bring sanity ( ie actual real science) to the whole vax thing and well- it's discouraging to say the least.
One can hope lessons will be actually learned. Panicking never solves anything and a lot of untried theories were tested and found to be wanting. Some like the psych ops worked far too well imho.
So just to stir things up: if me and my girls were visiting London and wanted selfies with George Washington in front of the National Gallery (which we always do) and then with the lions, and the Islamic men's only prayer event was happening, and we just strolled politely thru, not being pushy mind you just knowing where we wanted to go ... what would happen? Would they actively prevent us from moving around a public space?
And if we went for bonus points and wore our hair long and had cute sundresses on?
If a non-ticketed event is open to men in a public place but women would be removed, then Britain has fallen.
There were men, women and children at the event which has taken place for the last 5 years without incident. PS The Church of England (Episcopalian)) is the established Church only in England, the Church of Scotland (presbyterian)is the established Church in Scotland. Wales and Northern Ireland do not have ‘established’ churches. The average weekly Church attendance is about 5% of the overall population across all denominations in both countries.
In 2021, Starmer withdrew from attending because of the founder's links to extremism through CAGE. I have no idea if those links have altered. But that is within the five year period.
The question does remain -- in a mixed sex public space, should there be single sex segregation. I believe your argument is that yes, it should happen because it is based on a traditional form of worship, even if that worship traditionally does not engage in open air worship because of various fatwas about cleanliness.
Nick Timothy's argument is no, it should not happen because there is extremism at its heart and we are on a slippery slope.
I have not read Ed Hussain's The Islamist where he details the ways in which the Muslim Brotherhood and other radical Islamist groups such as the IR (red Shiite) created conditions for the takeover of political Islam rather than the secular (sometimes called Black Shiite Islam in Iran) but it is clear that Nick Timothy has. His argument appears to be that the celebration is more akin to the radical Islamism rather than traditional Islam.
I do intend to read The Islamist as I think it is very important to differentiate between the two. Too often people lump together all the different sects of Islam but there are distinct doctrinal differences.
The Episcopal church is in communion with the Anglican church. They are not the same and there are subtle differences in worship. I was brought up Episcopalian, and went to the Anglican church when I moved over and thus I noticed them. I decided my children were worth a mass and eventually converted to Roman Catholicism. My husband is a cradle Catholic and he wanted the children brought up Catholic.
The church and state are very much woven together in England in ways that they are not in the US. It is why it is religious toleration here, rather than separation of church and state. I am grateful that the toleration has increased in recent years. My village has an active 'Churches Together' movement (even if the Methodists complain about the alcohol when it is the Catholics turn to host)
I know the Green party seeks disestablishment but I don't think that would be a good thing or indeed would be welcomed by the population as a whole.
You may have already seen or even posted this Michelle but posting here just in case others didn't know (I didn't). The Free Press article today on Jew hate included a link to the October 7 British Parlimentary report from Lord Roberts Of Belgravia on what exactly happened that day. Here is the link to report first followed by weirdly long free press link.
Yes I have -- thanks for highlighting it. Something that I forgot to do. It is a really important report by Lord Roberts (who is Churchill's biographer -- Andrew Roberts)
An Iftar is the meal at the end of each day’s fast during Ramadan. This open-to-all hospitality event was attended by about 3,000 people and included traditional prayers- and by tradition men and women are in separate groups only for the prayer. On Good Friday the same square will be filled again and again by many more thousands of people for the annual reenactment of the events leading up to the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus. As a resident of London and a Christian minister of over 50 years standing I find this string of posts and responses deeply sinister and entirely at odds with the Good News about Jesus.
Unlike in the US, Britain doesn't have separation of church and state. The Church of England remains the official religion.
The Passion Play at Trafalgar Square has been happening for 16 years only and so is a relatively recent addition (I suspect because Passion Plays are more common in Catholic countries, not the country which had a Puritan theocracy in the 17th century etc). No one bats an eye because Britain is a Christian country. Thankfully Lewes no longer burns the effigies of the pope either. I do think Britain has come on leaps and bounds in terms of toleration of Catholic practices.
I understand completely that certain religions like Islam still retain separation by sex. It is their right to worship in that way. I have more of a problem when it is done in a public space which is by definition mixed sex.
Timothy's viewpoint is that the prayers included the adhan -- which is a call to belief and makes certain statements about their beliefs which are incompatible with Christianity, and that it is very different to the Nicene Creed which begins 'I believe' and that it should not be happening in a public space so near to St Martin's in the Fields.
Is he right to point out that such tactics have been used by radical Islamists to silence secular ones?
I was disturbed a few years ago when Türkiye decided to make the Hagia Sophia back into a mosque -- many of the Christian symbols are now covered up. I was pleased that I had been able to visit when it was still a secular museum.
Should there be a reasoned debate about this? Yes, I think there should be.
You are free to disagree with Timothy's POV but he should be allowed to say it without being charged with anti-Muslim hostility. He should also be allowed to say that in the wake of the Sara Sharif murder, schools should question the use of the hajib in young girls or that sharia marriage should not be happening to girls under the age of consent etc. In short he should be allowed to make his case.
There is a saying repeated here and at JiP from time to time that says when someone shows you what they are, believe them. The freedom enjoyed in the west is being used against us. Islam has been a threat to the west since the 7th century. I doubt you could spread the message of Christ in Baghdad. After all that has happened in the UK of late your blind defense of Islam is troubling.
Until the fall of Saddam, there were Christians in Baghdad, just as there were in most places in the ME. One of the big shifts in the 21st century has been the amount of Christian emigration from the ME --Syria, Iraq and Iran in particular. This has mainly gone unremarked.
The Ba'athist party was secular --Tariq Aziz was a Christian for example.
In terms of toleration, traditional Islam was reasonably tolerant even if different religions couldn't participate in the political process. When the Jews were kicked out of Spain (having already been kicked out of England) they mostly went to Thessalonica. The movement towards what is now Israel doesn't really begin until after you have Greek independence.
Where you can really see the difference is Istanbul -- Erdogan has worked steadily to alter the secular nature. For example, in 2008 he allowed women to wear the burka again (still forbidden in the military) -- I happened to be there when the vote happened. A few years, he turned the Hagia Sofia back into a mosque. This means certain Christian symbols have been covered up and one can't appreciate how Justinian et al worshipped. The Hagia Sofia as St Sofia was of course the centre of Orthodox Christianity from 532 - 1453.
First they got rid of the Jews, but I wasn's a Jew so I didn't care. Then they got rid of the Christians so I kind of cared. Then they moved on to the secularish muslims. Maybe I should have cared more.
The mass exodus from Iraq by the Jews in the 1950s was started in part by a false flag operation which the Irgun sponsored (see Martin Gilbert's History of Israel) Amongst the Palestinians, there is a large Christian group. However, they were mostly forced out by Hamas.
Pan Arabism allowed for different religions. Radical or political Islam doesn't.
It is far too facile to think that the ME is just one religion -- there are many. There is a big question about who gets to participate in the political process.
You still have people of the Baha'i in Iran and Qatar even though legally they are considered to be non-persons.
Perhaps Ian Barr you are unaware that most here are referring to Radical or Political Islam? I encourage you to research the clear, articulate, educated and very very experienced Iranian and other moderate Muslim and former muslim voices all over the world, especially the women on these issues. These Muslim voices , which include Muslim ambassadors and secular Muslim government officials from Muslim countries which have kicked the Radical Islamists out, (which said radicals then immigrated in droves to the west), are quite clear that Radical Islamists have a specific and quite successful long term playbook for how to infiltrate and takeover a country from the inside out. If you still doubt our concerns, then I encourage you to read the Muslim Brotherhood manifesto from 1991 whereby the goal of the Radical Islamist is made clear-“eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within.“ The Manifesto refers to Civilizational Jihad, which is Jihadic takeover of a country from within without overt violence when said country is stronger than the Jihadists can conquer directly.
There is a good article in today's Telegraph by Dr Taj Hargey, an imam and director of the Oxford Institute for British Islam, who has backed Nick Timothy and the Conservative Party's stand. It makes for interesting reading. He does explain why mass prayer of this sort is radical Islamism. He is not in favour of any manifestation of Muslim triumphalism which is what the adhan is.
He goes on to say "There is not a single verse in the Koran that obliges women to hide their faces or hair. It is an alien cultural affectation. So, too, is the clergy’s chauvinist sexism that demands men and women must worship separately."
"Before anyone goes on about Tommy Robinson, I will say that his name is being invoked to shut the conversation down. His name is reached for when any public figure criticizes Islamism or Islamist practices. Thus, he has played a major role in ensuring Islamists gain more of a foothold by ensuring no debate."
If a person shuts down conversation just by someone mentioning his name, that is a power I think hasn't been invoked since the Salem Witch Trials.
It is basically a cordon sanitaire which has been in place in the UK. The French managed it around Le Pen pere. It has worked less well with Marine as she refashioned the party her antisemitic father founded.
Britain did this very well with both the Sinn Fein leader Gerry Adams (the collapse of his trial last week was very odd) and the Protestant Union leader Ian Paisley. Both massive bigots in their own way.
If you have read the Mick Herron Slough House novels, you will recognise the Tommy Robinson type character who is controlled by Peter Judd.
A lot of this has to do with community cohesion and the attempt to make xenophobia beyond the pale. But if you don't lance boils , they grow. If you sweep dirt under the carpet, someone has to clean up the mess. If you alter names of words without seeking to change underlining sentiment, the sentiment eventually corrodes the new word.
The Conservative party had embraced the Labour view of it as the 'nasty party' (Teresa May's description) and wanted to demonstrate that it was different. In short they pinned their morals to Labour's winds.
It was the whole 'guilt by association' fallacy in action. But it shut the conversation down and swept things under the carpet.
What you are seeing, mainly because Kemi Badenoch has refused to take lectures from Labour, is a breaking of that silence, but there are other reasons as well. For example the return of the Taliban has thrown the plight of Afghan women (and by extension other Muslim women) into sharp relief. The same goes for the Women Life movement in Iran which ended the shutting down of the debate re the burka and face coverings. People have learned more and so feel emboldened to join the conversation.
I have witnessed in several women's groups that I am in.
Hello Northumberland! Good to see You again this Friday.
At least Starmer withdrew from the Ramadan event. More power to Nick Timothy. I agree with You. And the FSU.
I'm glad to see Sharia law turned down. The IRGC should be turned down also. I wish I could say I was shocked by their activities.
I'm sorry to hear about Baroness Hallett's report.
And I'm also sorry to hear about Your husband's cancelled trip.
We're having good weather here, too. And Paddy looks good and will look even better with a haircut.
Good luck with the editor. And, as always, TY for the very fine roundup, Michelle.
Good to see you JT
Starmer withdrew from that event in 2021. He would not have withdrawn today.
Lord Hermer has put out a disgusting tweet about this. They are now trying to to claim that 3,000 men praying on carpets en masse is no different from a single Jewish man praying in public. https://x.com/christopherhope/status/2034910566368563605
You can see which game they are trying to play here.
Nick Timothy and indeed all the Conservative leadership appear to be wise to it.
It was good to see that one of the IRGC masters of psych ops and the IRGC spokesman was eliminated today. This thread from UANI explains his importance: https://x.com/KasraAarabi/status/2034927669565882735
TY for the reply, Michelle.
Being proven correct after Covid in ever so many ways, kinda sucks to be honest. I mean if it caused folks to get smarter and pay more attention and question more and make sure that such future events were not handled so suckily, that would be fantastic. Unfortunately tho all you have to do is look at the forces trying to crush RFK's attempts to bring sanity ( ie actual real science) to the whole vax thing and well- it's discouraging to say the least.
One can hope lessons will be actually learned. Panicking never solves anything and a lot of untried theories were tested and found to be wanting. Some like the psych ops worked far too well imho.
So just to stir things up: if me and my girls were visiting London and wanted selfies with George Washington in front of the National Gallery (which we always do) and then with the lions, and the Islamic men's only prayer event was happening, and we just strolled politely thru, not being pushy mind you just knowing where we wanted to go ... what would happen? Would they actively prevent us from moving around a public space?
And if we went for bonus points and wore our hair long and had cute sundresses on?
If a non-ticketed event is open to men in a public place but women would be removed, then Britain has fallen.
Even better - eating pork chops on a stick.
Import savages; expect third world tribal savagery.
And we can find a little dog to carry through, dressed up to match our outfits!
There were men, women and children at the event which has taken place for the last 5 years without incident. PS The Church of England (Episcopalian)) is the established Church only in England, the Church of Scotland (presbyterian)is the established Church in Scotland. Wales and Northern Ireland do not have ‘established’ churches. The average weekly Church attendance is about 5% of the overall population across all denominations in both countries.
In 2021, Starmer withdrew from attending because of the founder's links to extremism through CAGE. I have no idea if those links have altered. But that is within the five year period.
The question does remain -- in a mixed sex public space, should there be single sex segregation. I believe your argument is that yes, it should happen because it is based on a traditional form of worship, even if that worship traditionally does not engage in open air worship because of various fatwas about cleanliness.
Nick Timothy's argument is no, it should not happen because there is extremism at its heart and we are on a slippery slope.
I have not read Ed Hussain's The Islamist where he details the ways in which the Muslim Brotherhood and other radical Islamist groups such as the IR (red Shiite) created conditions for the takeover of political Islam rather than the secular (sometimes called Black Shiite Islam in Iran) but it is clear that Nick Timothy has. His argument appears to be that the celebration is more akin to the radical Islamism rather than traditional Islam.
I do intend to read The Islamist as I think it is very important to differentiate between the two. Too often people lump together all the different sects of Islam but there are distinct doctrinal differences.
The Episcopal church is in communion with the Anglican church. They are not the same and there are subtle differences in worship. I was brought up Episcopalian, and went to the Anglican church when I moved over and thus I noticed them. I decided my children were worth a mass and eventually converted to Roman Catholicism. My husband is a cradle Catholic and he wanted the children brought up Catholic.
The church and state are very much woven together in England in ways that they are not in the US. It is why it is religious toleration here, rather than separation of church and state. I am grateful that the toleration has increased in recent years. My village has an active 'Churches Together' movement (even if the Methodists complain about the alcohol when it is the Catholics turn to host)
I know the Green party seeks disestablishment but I don't think that would be a good thing or indeed would be welcomed by the population as a whole.
Odd that Allah chose a pedophile as his messenger. So much for the Satanic Verses......
You may have already seen or even posted this Michelle but posting here just in case others didn't know (I didn't). The Free Press article today on Jew hate included a link to the October 7 British Parlimentary report from Lord Roberts Of Belgravia on what exactly happened that day. Here is the link to report first followed by weirdly long free press link.
https://www.7octparliamentarycommission.co.uk/?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email
https://www.thefp.com/p/the-many-faces-of-jew-hate?utm_source=podcast-email&publication_id=260347&post_id=191579131&play_audio=true&utm_campaign=email-play-on-substack&token=eyJ1c2VyX2lkIjoxMTQ1MjM4NDEsInBvc3RfaWQiOjE5MTU3OTEzMSwiaWF0IjoxNzc0MDE0Mzk1LCJleHAiOjE3NzY2MDYzOTUsImlzcyI6InB1Yi0yNjAzNDciLCJzdWIiOiJwb3N0LXJlYWN0aW9uIn0.m12Lr_WcMh5K_R49nNkxBf41OWC3TsImgSx7SBYBtxA&r=1w6n5t&triedRedirect=true&utm_medium=email
Yes I have -- thanks for highlighting it. Something that I forgot to do. It is a really important report by Lord Roberts (who is Churchill's biographer -- Andrew Roberts)
This is Charles Moore's op-ed which also speaks to the Nick Timothy issue and references the report. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2026/03/20/public-prayer-not-just-devotion-islamists-domination/ or https://archive.ph/8QlQy
Great article!
An Iftar is the meal at the end of each day’s fast during Ramadan. This open-to-all hospitality event was attended by about 3,000 people and included traditional prayers- and by tradition men and women are in separate groups only for the prayer. On Good Friday the same square will be filled again and again by many more thousands of people for the annual reenactment of the events leading up to the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus. As a resident of London and a Christian minister of over 50 years standing I find this string of posts and responses deeply sinister and entirely at odds with the Good News about Jesus.
Unlike in the US, Britain doesn't have separation of church and state. The Church of England remains the official religion.
The Passion Play at Trafalgar Square has been happening for 16 years only and so is a relatively recent addition (I suspect because Passion Plays are more common in Catholic countries, not the country which had a Puritan theocracy in the 17th century etc). No one bats an eye because Britain is a Christian country. Thankfully Lewes no longer burns the effigies of the pope either. I do think Britain has come on leaps and bounds in terms of toleration of Catholic practices.
I understand completely that certain religions like Islam still retain separation by sex. It is their right to worship in that way. I have more of a problem when it is done in a public space which is by definition mixed sex.
Timothy's viewpoint is that the prayers included the adhan -- which is a call to belief and makes certain statements about their beliefs which are incompatible with Christianity, and that it is very different to the Nicene Creed which begins 'I believe' and that it should not be happening in a public space so near to St Martin's in the Fields.
Is he right to point out that such tactics have been used by radical Islamists to silence secular ones?
I was disturbed a few years ago when Türkiye decided to make the Hagia Sophia back into a mosque -- many of the Christian symbols are now covered up. I was pleased that I had been able to visit when it was still a secular museum.
Should there be a reasoned debate about this? Yes, I think there should be.
You are free to disagree with Timothy's POV but he should be allowed to say it without being charged with anti-Muslim hostility. He should also be allowed to say that in the wake of the Sara Sharif murder, schools should question the use of the hajib in young girls or that sharia marriage should not be happening to girls under the age of consent etc. In short he should be allowed to make his case.
"You are free to disagree with Timothy's POV but he should be allowed to say it without being charged with anti-Muslim hostility..."
As if that should even be a matter of consideration? Only a nation of lunatics or supine sheep would even raise such a point.
There is a saying repeated here and at JiP from time to time that says when someone shows you what they are, believe them. The freedom enjoyed in the west is being used against us. Islam has been a threat to the west since the 7th century. I doubt you could spread the message of Christ in Baghdad. After all that has happened in the UK of late your blind defense of Islam is troubling.
Until the fall of Saddam, there were Christians in Baghdad, just as there were in most places in the ME. One of the big shifts in the 21st century has been the amount of Christian emigration from the ME --Syria, Iraq and Iran in particular. This has mainly gone unremarked.
The Ba'athist party was secular --Tariq Aziz was a Christian for example.
In terms of toleration, traditional Islam was reasonably tolerant even if different religions couldn't participate in the political process. When the Jews were kicked out of Spain (having already been kicked out of England) they mostly went to Thessalonica. The movement towards what is now Israel doesn't really begin until after you have Greek independence.
Where you can really see the difference is Istanbul -- Erdogan has worked steadily to alter the secular nature. For example, in 2008 he allowed women to wear the burka again (still forbidden in the military) -- I happened to be there when the vote happened. A few years, he turned the Hagia Sofia back into a mosque. This means certain Christian symbols have been covered up and one can't appreciate how Justinian et al worshipped. The Hagia Sofia as St Sofia was of course the centre of Orthodox Christianity from 532 - 1453.
First they got rid of the Jews, but I wasn's a Jew so I didn't care. Then they got rid of the Christians so I kind of cared. Then they moved on to the secularish muslims. Maybe I should have cared more.
Far more complicated than that.
The mass exodus from Iraq by the Jews in the 1950s was started in part by a false flag operation which the Irgun sponsored (see Martin Gilbert's History of Israel) Amongst the Palestinians, there is a large Christian group. However, they were mostly forced out by Hamas.
Pan Arabism allowed for different religions. Radical or political Islam doesn't.
It is far too facile to think that the ME is just one religion -- there are many. There is a big question about who gets to participate in the political process.
You still have people of the Baha'i in Iran and Qatar even though legally they are considered to be non-persons.
Perhaps Ian Barr you are unaware that most here are referring to Radical or Political Islam? I encourage you to research the clear, articulate, educated and very very experienced Iranian and other moderate Muslim and former muslim voices all over the world, especially the women on these issues. These Muslim voices , which include Muslim ambassadors and secular Muslim government officials from Muslim countries which have kicked the Radical Islamists out, (which said radicals then immigrated in droves to the west), are quite clear that Radical Islamists have a specific and quite successful long term playbook for how to infiltrate and takeover a country from the inside out. If you still doubt our concerns, then I encourage you to read the Muslim Brotherhood manifesto from 1991 whereby the goal of the Radical Islamist is made clear-“eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within.“ The Manifesto refers to Civilizational Jihad, which is Jihadic takeover of a country from within without overt violence when said country is stronger than the Jihadists can conquer directly.
There is a good article in today's Telegraph by Dr Taj Hargey, an imam and director of the Oxford Institute for British Islam, who has backed Nick Timothy and the Conservative Party's stand. It makes for interesting reading. He does explain why mass prayer of this sort is radical Islamism. He is not in favour of any manifestation of Muslim triumphalism which is what the adhan is.
He goes on to say "There is not a single verse in the Koran that obliges women to hide their faces or hair. It is an alien cultural affectation. So, too, is the clergy’s chauvinist sexism that demands men and women must worship separately."
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2026/03/20/islamic-leader-supports-tories-farage-mass-muslim-prayer/ or https://archive.ph/A0FEq
Thank Michelle. Good to see such hopeful pushback, which does need to come from the moderate Muslims themselves.
Im not sure what this is:
"Before anyone goes on about Tommy Robinson, I will say that his name is being invoked to shut the conversation down. His name is reached for when any public figure criticizes Islamism or Islamist practices. Thus, he has played a major role in ensuring Islamists gain more of a foothold by ensuring no debate."
If a person shuts down conversation just by someone mentioning his name, that is a power I think hasn't been invoked since the Salem Witch Trials.
It is basically a cordon sanitaire which has been in place in the UK. The French managed it around Le Pen pere. It has worked less well with Marine as she refashioned the party her antisemitic father founded.
Britain did this very well with both the Sinn Fein leader Gerry Adams (the collapse of his trial last week was very odd) and the Protestant Union leader Ian Paisley. Both massive bigots in their own way.
If you have read the Mick Herron Slough House novels, you will recognise the Tommy Robinson type character who is controlled by Peter Judd.
A lot of this has to do with community cohesion and the attempt to make xenophobia beyond the pale. But if you don't lance boils , they grow. If you sweep dirt under the carpet, someone has to clean up the mess. If you alter names of words without seeking to change underlining sentiment, the sentiment eventually corrodes the new word.
The Conservative party had embraced the Labour view of it as the 'nasty party' (Teresa May's description) and wanted to demonstrate that it was different. In short they pinned their morals to Labour's winds.
It was the whole 'guilt by association' fallacy in action. But it shut the conversation down and swept things under the carpet.
What you are seeing, mainly because Kemi Badenoch has refused to take lectures from Labour, is a breaking of that silence, but there are other reasons as well. For example the return of the Taliban has thrown the plight of Afghan women (and by extension other Muslim women) into sharp relief. The same goes for the Women Life movement in Iran which ended the shutting down of the debate re the burka and face coverings. People have learned more and so feel emboldened to join the conversation.
I have witnessed in several women's groups that I am in.